Possible tintype of Billy the Kid

Comment by kevin eshom. on June 16, 2010 at 5:33pm

Very possible.......

Comment by Steve McCarty on June 18, 2010 at 8:53am

One has to look closely at this image and the well known one. Both men have little "button" chins, narrow but full lips, clear what must be blue eyes, full cheeks, wavy hair, a long rather narrow nose that bends to the right in life. This photo is "as in tintype" which means it's a mirror image. One can also see that this man has closed his lips over buck teeth.

Furthermore I found this picture in a group of tintypes that evidence shows was collected by Sallie Chisum. If she was collecting pictures it would be very likely for her to collect this one. She even repaired the back with homemade tape.

Sallie kept her photo collection for the balance of her life. She gave her "papers" to Lily Casey, which eventually became "My Girlhood Among the Outlaws" edited by Eve Ball. She gave her picture collection to Ara V. Chisum, Walter Pitzer's (Sallie's brother) daughter. She did not share most of them with her family, being embarrassed about what happened to the Chisum cattle empire and also about the family's relationship with "bad" men. She did, however; show the family the photos of her mother and a photo of a toddling Fred T. Robert, Sallie's youngest son.

Otherwise the pictures were forgotten and stored in Ara's attic. After she died, her house was locked up for two decades. Then the family decided to clean the place out and held a yard sale. The pictures went into old cake boxes with a lot of other stuff, wrapping paper, ribbon, etc. and sold. They ended up in a local antique shop where i discovered them.

I discussed the sale with the family. They recalled it, of course and they recalled seeing some of the pictures "Where did you get these!?" I told them that I bought them in an antique store in Bend. The family lives in Oregon and I spoke with Walter Pitzer's two grandsons, Ara's boys.

The family owns a large ranch and still work their herds on horseback. I took a slew of pictures of them working calves. A very nice, charming group of people.

Comment by Jessica Boyd-Sharski on August 24, 2010 at 10:49am

I think this is the same guy as the last photo on the previous page. Maybe a few years younger here than the prervious photo. I don't think this is Billy. But I do think you may be on to something with the other photo you think is Billy...

Comment by Steve McCarty on August 25, 2010 at 12:14pm

Please understand Jeff, that the Chisum family live way out in the boondocks and they are very hard working cow people. These guys are real cowboys and abide no foolishness. They aren't all that wild about me owning these little pictures, however; they were very polite to me, real cowpokes are.

If I was to drive out there and ask them to sign a piece of paper describing their relationship to the collection they'd say, why? I'd have to reply, because people don't believe me when I tell them what they are. They'd say, "So?"

Comment by Steve McCarty on August 25, 2010 at 12:32pm

Also, Jeff, a man is only as good as his word. I've stated my word that what I did, I did. If I was eager to peddle the collection. People keep telling me that they are valuable...yeah, maybe. I know what other tintypes have sold for. Honestly I have considered it. If that was my goal I'd be all over the place getting statements from the Chisum family, their inlaws, the lady who owns the shop where I bought them and anyone else I could find. I'm not going to do that. Take me at my word or not.

I am convinced that the collection is real because, I've met the Chisum family who owned them and sold them, I've met Sallie's granddaugher who looked just like her, there are nearly a hundred pictures that look like many of the people in the Chisum family and those involved in the Lincoln Country War, who Sallie Chisum knew.

Collectors, historians, pundits are not willing to take the leap of faith that I have. That's okay with me. Eventually the collection will be accepted, since I'm convinced they are authentic. I can wait. I do, hope; however that you enjoy seeing the parts of the collection that I've posted. That is my goal.

Comment by Dolan on August 25, 2010 at 2:54pm

Steve, you're one of the most arrogant people I've ever run across on the internet. You say that your collection will eventually be accepted simply because YOU are convinced it is authentic. And you proclaim yourself THE expert. You definitely possess antique images but your "identification" of this image (and others) is simply ludicrous. What "people" keep telling you that they are valuable Steve? You were booted off SOTOW because you spammed your "collection" over there and it was not well received. You spam your collection here and, for the most part, your "identifications" are not well received well here either. If you were not eager to peddle this collection you wouldn't keep spamming it all over the place. This image you claim to be Billy the Kid looks nothing like the historically accepted image. You have another that you claim is Billy the Kid and it doesn't look like this image or the historically accepted one. You could get any kind of letter you want from the Chisum's but this image (or your other purported image of Billy the Kid) will NEVER be accepted as Billy the Kid because they simply don't look like the historically accepted image.

No, Steve, diligent researchers do not take "leaps of faith." However, the goal of ALL con men is to convince people to take "leaps of faith." I, for one, do not enjoy seeing you spam your "collection" all over this board. Create your own website for this stuff (and your claims), provide us a link, and anyone who so chooses can visit without being constantly bombarded with it here.

You had previously whined to all of us that you were out of here. That is one promise I wish you had kept.

Comment by Steve McCarty on August 25, 2010 at 3:13pm

Also in court, the jury takes into account the preponderance of evidence. I believe that I have it and it does provide at least some provenance. I also consider that the pictures can speak for themselves, at least to a some degree.

It is indeed not a perfect world, and provenance passed down father to son is best, I guess. Except that the de Aragon photo is not Billy...it doesn't look like him and I don't think it is, but the provenance appears good. So, which trumps what? Could it be that the picture is not of the Kid, but is accepted because it has provenance, or that we have a picture of the Kid, that's actually him, but the provenance is not iron clad?

Anyway, Jeff, thanks for responding to me. I do understand your point, but I do think my line of ownership establishes at least a core of provenance and is not "none at all".

.

Comment by Janet Erwin on August 26, 2010 at 4:46am

Not even close, Steve, sorry, and unless your claim that photographer Morgan regularly escaped the Wisconsin winters by moving his base of operations to the warmer, drier Southwest during the cold months is based on verifiable fact rather than simply your own theorizing, your assertion that this could be a photo of Bill Bonney is is even more ludicrous--to use "Dolan's" word--than most of your claimed identifications.

However, I gotta say that if "Dolan" really were whom you seem to believe he is* then IMO his charge that you're "arrogant" and many of your identifications "ludicrous" would be about as perfect a case of projection as it's possible to imagine. ;-)

*He isn't, though.

Comment by Steve McCarty on August 26, 2010 at 3:14pm

Ha! I feel a little like the Kid being heaped upon by Dolan and his crowd! It is kind of ironic don't you think? That McCarty and this one just standing up for what we think is right, and facing all alone the wealthy big wigs who have all of the clout!

It breaths a little life into the Lincoln County War for me. But the Kid and me? Well, we ain't a gonna give up! Criminie, isn't this what this sight is all about!

But really folks you act as if I've just robbed Fort Knox!

Yes, there was a photographer in Vernon County named George W. Morgan, and yes he has a lot of pictures there. And yes, there are pictures within my collection that look exactly like the ones taken in Wisconsin. In addition my picture of the Kid has Morgan's name written along the bottom, exactly like ones that I saw in Viroqua. Therefore, Morgan must have been in both places!

Comment by Steve McCarty on August 26, 2010 at 3:25pm

I don't see myself as "arrogant", but rather persistent. There is a difference. Is it not equally arrogant for someone to claim my opinions a "ludicrous" as my opinions themselves? To me it seems ludicrous that people cannot see the obvious identities of most of the folks within my collection. I mean are you guys blind? So whose is being arrogant here?

I hope that you all understand that my tone is simply conversational. I'm not huffing and puffing and nor an I upset. I'm just stating my piece.

Comment

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• 2
• 3
• …
• 17
• Next ›
• Page