Sallie Chisum's Collection of Ferrotypes

[Steve McCarty]

I've found Sallie Chisum's personal/private collection of tintypes and carte de visits. They came from Sallie's relatives who moved to Oregon after Walter Pitzer Chisum's death in 1919. Over time the family pretty much lost interest in their history and sold off much of that they had from the old days in a yard sale. I found the pictures in a little antique store and bought them.

Most of the images are of Sallie's family including she and her first husband, their children and her brothers, cousins and John S... There are also images of Sallie's female friends including Lily Casey, Helena and Phoebe Coe, and even Buck Powell's wife Eliza Jane Hestor. Collection includes many Regulators, including Billy, Tom Folliard, Doc Scurlock, Joe Smith, John Jones, maybe Big Jim French, Juan Patron, and maybe Iginio Salazar. We even see Alexander McSween, Godrey Gauss, Sheriff Brady and Dirty Dave Rudabaugh.

Book follows.

[Janet Erwin]

Oy...here we go again, LOL!

Folks, there's no question in my mind that Steve has photographs that once belonged to Sallie Chisum. He's established that connection quite satisfactorily, as far as I'm concerned. (Although, Steve, I think you should get someone from the Chisum family to go on record before it's too late. A notarized statement as to the photos' provenance would be good.)

But folks, what Steve consistently neglects to mention is that only a couple of these photographs are labeled, so 99% of his claimed "identifications" are pure speculation, some of it totally out of left field, IMO.

For instance, to the best of my recollection there are four (4) photographs in this collection that he claims are of William H. Bonney at various times in his short life. Call me crazy, but they look to me like four completely different young men, none of whom bears any resemblance to the known photographs(s) of WHB that I can see.

Sorry, Steve, but dammit, you asked for it. (& how many times did Marcelle get on your case for making the same sorts of unsubstantiated claims on her board?)

PS: Juan Patron and Yginio Salazar weren't Regulators--at least not part of the original dozen or so "Ironclads"--and John Jones was part of the Seven Rivers crowd who fought for the other side against the Regulators, albeit not so much because they supported Murphy/Dolan but because they hated John Chisum.

[Steve McCarty]

Just reading Nolan's book where it shows John Jone's headstone. He said that John was a pal of the Kid. He was Ma'am Jone's son. (or was it Wallis's book?) My photo of him matches PERFECTLY with the photo on "The West of"....right down to the little goatee and the thin beard that runs around his jaw and the wisps of facial hair that is underneath his lower lip.

I have shown many of the photos to the various family members besides the Chisums. Carl Coe, for example assured me the the pictures of the four Coes are absolutely authentic. As for the Chisum family who recognized them, well I have witnesses. It's embarrassing for me to ask them for a document. I was sitting with them in their living room and one fellow jumped when he saw the picture of little Fred, "Where did you get this photo" he demanded. "I've seen this before". So what am I supposed to do, break out a piece of paper and ask him to verify what he just said? I was a little concerned that he was going to run me out of the place as it was.

The photos of Brady, Folliard, Patron, Sallie, her husband, her boys, Scurlock, McSween, Gauss, Lily Casey, and even Matilda Davis match perfectly other known pictures. I found a picture of a young man on the same little shelving unit and I suspect it may be Big Jim French. A very tall and powerful looking young man. There were three different photos of the same man, which always means they come from a collection. I'll bet it's him. The photo of the, I'd say 15 year old Hispanic boy with the fresh wound on his forehead, I think might be Iginio Salazar. He is dressed is a nice suite and it's a very close up image, as are most of them. I have reasons to believe that Dirty Dave is indeed him.

On the reverse of the pic of John Jones, is written in pencil "John J." on the reverse of who I believe is Joe Smith is, "Smith, J". Interestingly both men are wearing the same, identical clothings. Smith has his photo taken first and them John doned them and had his picture taken. Both are in their frames and both are signed on the reverse.

As for your corrections w/t who were and who were not Regulators, I stand corrected; but to me it's just splitting hairs. Iginio did fight along side Billy in the McSween house and Juan Patron was a pal of Billy's too. Not a great friend, but an ally.

Now what do you think I found if not who I say they are? A group of 70 pictures of people who look exactly like Sallie's friends, but are not them? How can that be? Do you think I've found evidence of a parallel universe?

The rampant skepticism re this collection is getting tiresome. I am not lying. I am not trying to peddle these images. I'm trying to donate them to someone who would like to display such things. There are some well known and powerfully connected collectors who refuse to accept this collection, but they have a dog in the fight. What do they think I did, make the entire story up? That's impossible and anyway it's not my way. I am just blown away that I ran across this collection.

Do you understand how impossible it would be to find such a group that is fake?

As for not being authenticated by an expert. Well, no one is more expert than I. I have studied and poured over this collection for three years now and I'm a believer. Then when I found the local relatives of Sallie and the fact that they recognized the collection sealed to deal for me.

Lastly, Janet my old and dear friend; I know better of what I have found that you do. If the pictures of Sallie's family are real then why not all the others? Now Janet, I like you too much to cross swords with you, and I never will. But in this case, my dear, you are just plain wrong.

Steve

P.S. Lastly and more importantly I want people to see these pictures. Most are like new. Most are closeups. One really can see what Tom O. Folliard looked like. The Kid's photos are clear as a bell, taken about three years apart. The picture of a glaring Dirty Dave, (It must be him!) shows him exactly as all of us have pictured him; he is one mean looking charactor.

So while I cannot admonish people for being skeptical; it's their right, but that skepticism should not curtail the sharing of these pictures, or keep people from viewing them with an open mind. Nor should it cause people who are wont to accept them as fact, as I do; from doing just that.

[Janet Erwin]

Steve, do you ever really, really read what anyone else says? How many times have I told you that I have no doubt your collection is genuine (i.e. it belonged to Sallie Chisum and the Chisum family at one time) and many of the photographs you've posted at various times are obviously the people you say they are, whether they're labeled or not. For instance--and please correct me if I'm wrong--but isn't your photo of Lily Casey the same one that's appeared in many of the BtK/LCW books?

However, you persist in making what appears to be a HUGE leap, going from photos that are obviously very similar or even identical to known and published photographs of the same person, and which may even be labeled as such (your photo of John Jones*, for instance, though I don't think I've ever seen it; in fact, I don't remember you ever mentioning him before) all the way to insisting that you also have photos of Billy Bonney, Dave Rudabaugh, etc. and that these photos absolutely, positively are who you say they are period/amen!! even though these photos

(a) are not labeled;

(b) have never appeared anywhere else and/or there are no (other) known photos of the person in question for purposes of comparison; and

(c) your "Billy" photos appear to be of three or four completely different men, none of whom bears any resemblance to the others or to the known photo(s) of William Bonney.

Finally, did you really mean to say "If the pictures of Sallie's family are real then why not all the others?" Please define what you mean by "real."

* You're correct that John Jones and Billy Bonney were good friends. However, John and at least one of his brothers fought on the other side in the LCW. Billy and the Jones boys had supposedly agreed to avoid firing at each other whenever possible. ;-)

[Steve McCarty]

Janet: Concerning my picture of Lily Casey. It has never been published before. It shows her at her best, I think. She looks about sixteen.
She was five years younger than Sallie. Lily said that she was thinking of marrying John S., but somehow I doubt it. For one thing he was much almost fourty years her elder. I have seen pictures of her standing with the Chisum family, and certainly Sallie gave Lily her bio of uncle John.

[Steve McCarty]

Janet: I am confused about the relationship between John Jones and BTK. He was indeed a part of the Seven Rivers bunch, but he did know the kid and they spent time shooting together. Yet Billy said that when he ran from the burning McSween house he said that John Jones, John Kinney and...I've forgotten; were shooting at him. So what gives?

Furthermore my picture of John Jones (says John J. on the reversse) shows him wearing the exact same clothing of a picture that I have of Joe Smith (says "smith, J" on the reverse). They exchanged clothing to have their picture taken.

Seems to me that all of the guys in the LCW knew oneanother pretty well and from time to time their friendships changed. Certainly BTK knew Jesse Evans and at least for a time they must have been friends.

[Donald Earl Coe]

As far as the statement that Carl Coe said these pics of Frank and George are authentic,well thats not what he told me. I am a cousin of the Coes and we where talking about putting them in the Coe Family Hall of Fame, and Carl said theres no way these pics could be of Frank and George because George had very little hair, and in this pic the guy has enough hair to stuff a couple of pillows. Google his name and look at his pics of him and his wife Phobe , and see. Don E. Coe Kansas City, Ks.

[Chris Lampe]

Don,

Thanks for providing some insight on these photos from the Coe family. I've seen probably half a dozen photos of George, all of them in his older years, and maybe two were without a hat and as you stated, he was well on the way to being bald. I'm not sure how old the man in Steve's photo is but he appears to be older than George would have been in the late 1870's (but then, so does Frank in that photo of him sitting with his wife) but the cardboard frame seems consistent with other tintypes I've seen from that era. Does the family have a large number of other photographs of George and Frank? I'm guessing you probably do and thus, have a much better idea of how each man appeared in life.

I've always thought that Steve's "George" stands a very good chance of really being him and I'm convinced that his "Frank" is the real deal. That photo of Frank with his wife shows some very unique facial characteristics and the guy in Steve's photo is an almost identical match. Same for Steve's "Tom" photo.

It's very interesting to hear the opinions of family members so thanks again for posting.

ETA:

Here is an authentic photo of George (left) and the man Steve claims to be George. I see a lot of similarities but there are enough differences to raise some doubt.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/corwin1968/006georgecoecompa...

Here is an authentic photo of Frank (left) and the man Steve claims is him. Definately the same man to my eyes.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/corwin1968/007FrankCoecompar...

Finally, here's the known (suspected) photo of Tom (left) and Steve's photo
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/corwin1968/008Tomcomparison.jpg

[Steve McCarty]

Janet: just consider the tragedy if these photos are real but become religated to the dust bin because of an over wrought skepticism? For the life of me, I cannot understand how violent the response to this collection has (in many circles) been.

Every one else who had found a "maybe" picture of the Kid has found only one, and none of them have even a modicum of provenance. I found 70 pictures! All related to the same time and place in history, the Lincoln County War. Why cannot people accept this as fact? Is it because it's too amazing to be true? Is it because they have been searching for just this kind of thing and havn't found it and I have? Is it jealousy? Why the rage?

Now I know that some collectors believe that my collection somehow deminishes theirs. I'm not going to names names, but I think this is how they feel. For this I am sorry and I do not think it is true. Fact is, my collection is the most amazing collection of LCW and BTK photographs extant. I have to admit that this bothers me some, because I do not want to be in the limelight and I hate the thought of what this collection might be worth! (it's true!)

In each and every book that we see written about BTK we see the same photos over and over again. Well, that's okay, but the ones I found are so much better. My photo of Alex McSween is infinitely better than that poorly retouched image we see in all of the books. Here we see him as he looked soon before he died. Same for Sheriff Brady and of course poor Tom Folliard. My picture of John Jones looks like a senior's graduation picture; it's that clear and close up.

[Janet Erwin]

Every one else who had found a "maybe" picture of the Kid has found only one, and none of them have even a modicum of provenance.

That's nonsense, Steve. The de Aragon photo has impeccable provenance, enough for no less a personage than Robert M. Utley to accept it as a true photograph of William Bonney.

The Chiavone photo has impressive provenance as well, since it's also a photograph of Paula Chiavone's grandfather Jose Dolores Lueras, is labeled as such (as a photo of Sr. Lueras with the "gabacho William Bonney") and was found--by Ms. Chiavone herself IIRC--in a box of family photos that had belonged to her late grandfather.

The "chain of custody" in each case is unbroken; neither photograph ever left the possession of the respective family involved.

So if you want your photos to be taken seriously GET THEM DOCUMENTED. I don't care how embarrassed you are to ask the elderly Chisums for documentation, for notarized statements or whatever, just do it, and do it before it's too late.

However, I'm bound to point out that it may already be too late to establish chain of custody for some of the photos, since I assume the Chisums will only be able to vouch for the photos they recognize and remember as having been in the family's possession at one time.

[Steve McCarty]

The only trouble with the Chiavone picture is that it's not Billy the Kid, OMHO.

I read that none of the other pictures of BTK has provenance. I guess I was incorrect.

The Chisum family who are ranchers here in Oregon have hundreds of photos of the SSR, relatives, Sallie's two boys, an elderly Sallie Chisum that is inscribed on the reverse. There is also a fantasctic 8/10 of Willi and Lina Chisum taken either just before or soon after their wedding. It is taken however; in the front lawn of the SSR. They are leaning on the open gate on that famous white picket fence that enclosed the front yard of the Long House.

In the picture of an elderly Sallie she is very neatly dressed. She has lost a few teeth. She wears glasses. She wears her hair "up" as she always did. Interestingly the statment written on the reverse says Sallie Chisum, ca. 1930. Jame's daughter. This I find interesting. It sounds as if the family did not know who Sallie was, but since they are blood relatives of Walter Pitzer Chisum, whom I do not think was close to his sister, it sounds logical that they would not automatically know who she was. Walter probably did not mention her much. Ara's son, btw: inspected the handwriting on the back of that photo and could not confirm or deny that it was his mother's.

Fact is the Chisum family here are so busy with their lives and it has been so long since their days in New Mexico that they have pretty much forgotten about it. Oh, they'll say things like, "Yes, our family was there". But when asked for any interesting details they usually say that they don't know any. Ara died in 1974 and she seldom discussed her past in detail. While she did mention it none in the family could recall any tidbits that she might have shared with them. There are plenty stories about Ara however. Ara and her husband were very much tied up with the cattle business here in Oregon. Her husband was the president of the Oregon Cattlemen's Association and so was his son after him. So Ara and her husband were very big wheels around here and she only matriculated in the fanciest circles. Her best friend, btw: were Wilber and Louise Coe. Wilber being Frank's only son. His wife Louise was the first female state senator in New Mexico. I saw pictures of the two families standing with marlin caught in the oceans off of Mexico.

Ara and her mom, Inez must have moved here soon after Walter's death (1919), because Ara married soon after she arrived and her first son was born on 30 Jan 1921 I was told Ara was Sallie's favorite relative.

I think that Sallie was estranged from both of her brothers. I also think that she and Lily Casey had planned to write a memoir. Sallie as she aged became embittered and lost interest in past memories. They became bitter memories.

[Janet Erwin]

The only trouble with the Chiavone picture is that it's not Billy the Kid, OMHO.

Well, let's consider what the Chiavone photo has going for it that your alleged Billy photos don't (besides an unbroken chain of custody and the notation on the back that it's a photo of Jose Dolores Lueras and "the gabacho William Bonney" I mean):

Lueras's great-great grandson Claudio Dimas (who is Paula Chiavone's grandnephew) has said that his "Papa Lolo" (Sr. Lueras) was born in 1861 and lived in Lincoln County--in and around Lincoln itself, as well as in White Oaks--in the 1870s and 1880s. He's also said he remembers family stories that his g-g-grandfather Lueras and "El Chivato" were friends, but didn't take the stories seriously because almost every family in that area had similar stories (and why wouldn't they?!)

Can you honestly say that about your alleged Billy photos? Is there anyone with "Billy" in any of your 3-4 alleged Billy photos who's been identified by a Chisum or a Coe as a relative of theirs? And not just a relative, but a relative who was Billy's age and who lived in or near Lincoln (or White Oaks or Ft. Sumner or Roswell or wherever) at the same time Billy did?

C'mon, Steve, 'fess up. You don't have anything like that kind of provenance. AFAIK you can't even be sure your "Billy" photos were part of the Chisum collection. They may simply be other old photos that were mixed in with the Chisum photos by the owner of the antique shop in which you found the photos. That's why you need as much documentation as you can still get, Steve. You say you have witnesses? Get 'em on record.

********

Speaking of the Chisum collection, btw, I've just re-read some of the posts I saved from Marcelle's board, not only your posts about the photos you now own but also about the large number of photos and other materials that are still in the family's possession and to which you're apparently referring above, and I'm hoping someone with better credentials than either you or I possess is reading this and is inspired to pursue the matter further, before any more of this important history is lost.

*******
Finally--and speaking of notations on the backs of photos--why would the "Sallie Chisum, ca. 1930. Jame's daughter." indicate to you that the family didn't know who Sallie was? Doesn't it mean just the opposite?

[Steve McCarty]

I do understand that the chain of provenance w/t the collection I found is not perfect....there are some gaps; for instance, what happened to them between the time they were sold at the yard sale held by the Chisum family to the time they arrived in the antique store where I found them, but darn it all; life is not perfect. It is still good provenance, but I am the first to admit it is not perfect provenance. To understand the collection one must see it in its entirety. Then it sings.

A little bit about where I found the pictures. I know that the Chisum family sold many of the things that Ara Chisum owned after her death. They were just old things in the attic to them. The woman who operates the antique store where I bought them had a group of pickers who would buy things in bulk from yard, and garage sales all over the state. They'd offer them to Mary (the name of the woman who owns the store.) and she'd buy them sometimes sight unseen. Then Mary would pick throught the stuff and take the things she liked and offer them for sale. In this case she bought pink cardboard doughnut boxes that were stuffed with with all kinds of things that women used to save. They contained a knots of ribbon, wrapping paper, and Valentine's Day cards. There were wedding invitations, etc. (yes, I read all of the names.) They were pretty large boxes big enough to hold a dozen doughnuts.

While digging through the boxes Mary ran across the tintypes. Some she wrapped in little packages and some she stored in her garage and some she put out for sale. The tintypes could have been of anyone. Mary had many all ready in her store. Like many of us, she is captivated by the images of those long gone.

Then I came along. I had been to Lincoln, and had read most of the standard histories. I had studied that famous pic of BTK. I drew copies of it. (I'm an artist. Taught drawing in high school) I saw the shelving unit that held some tintypes. I picked up a little picture on the top and looked at the image. I was about blown over; it was a McCarty, looked just like my grandfather.

Then I noticed the lips over the buck teeth, the wavy hair, the youth, the full cheeks, the blue eyes, and I recognized BTK. Then I found Sallie, Walter, Willi, Juan Patron and family, Tom Folliard and others.

I found John Jones about a year ago. I did not recognize the image, but on the back was written "John J." in childish pencil handwriting. Just two weeks ago I ran across the picture of Jones on page 217 (I'm looking at it now.) in Nolans "The West of Billy the Kid". Same exact guy! The facial hair is very recognizable, but my image is extremely clear and untouched. Add this to the fact his name is written on the reverse and I'm a believer. Then there is the picture of a young man wearing the same exact clothing as Jones which says on the reverse, "Smith, J" in the same hand as the writing on the pic of Jones. Well there was Joe Smith who fought in the five day war. He wrote a chidding letter to the House that I think was published in a newpaper. Using logic, this tintype must be him.

The pic of Big Jim French is pretty much as educated guess. I found it in the same store and there are three of them of the same guy. It would be likely for Sallie to have Big Jim's picture. Mary just ran across them and put them out for sale. She did not recognize the three related images, but I did. Three pics of the same person means they were in a collection. I found this, very big young man in the same store and in the same place that I found all of the others. Is it likely that I've found Big Jim? It is likely, but not a sure thing.

Also I am very impressed by the totality of the collection. When displayed in one place they make a very powerful body of photos. Many look very similar, as if taken by the same person. I trust Sallie Chisum's ability to collect related tintypes. They are either of her family of people who lived in and around Lincoln. So if I see an image that looks a lot like someone whose picture I have seen I generally conclude that Sallie's picture is legit, but I never tout a picture unless I am very, very sure. History is too important to lie about. Sallie knew Billy. She liked him, at least to some degree. Since she collected all of the other guys, then she must have collected him too. It's just too logical.

You have said that my pictures of Billy do not look like him. That's your opinon and you are welcome to it, but the pictures look exactly like Billy to me. So do Folliard, Brady, Patron, Willi and Walter, Sallie and her husband, Sallie's two boys, Gauss, McSween, Jones, Lily Casey, the Coes (four of them), Scurlock, Eliza Hestor, and probably others that don't come to mind.

Oh, I just ran across a rather poor picture of Barney Mason. He is shown with his wife and has a boy perched on his knee just as he has in the picture on page 231 in "The West of Billy the Kid". I am telling you, Janet, this collection is just amazing! Somehow I think that some who discount it are must being contrary to be contrary.

Please believe me. I am not trying to fool you or anyone else. Can I be wrong? Well, I suppose there is always that possiblity. But is it likely? Never.